[00:00:01.370] - Announcer
Do you wonder if others are dealing with the same project management challenges as you, not sure where to turn for guidance and leadership. Office Hours are in session as we discuss project management and PMOs with global leaders, hearing their story and learning their secrets to success. Our goal is to empower you and help you elevate your PMO and project management career to new heights. Welcome back to Project Management Office Hours with your host, PMO Joe.
[00:00:30.090] - PMO Joe
Welcome everyone to Project Management office hours. We're the number one live project management radio show in the United States, broadcasting to you today from the Phoenix Business RadioX Studios in Tempe, Arizona. I'm your host, PMO Joe. We are going to jump into our topics on project management and gamification coming up in just a little bit. Before we jump into that, just want to do a little recap. I was at the PMI Global Summit last week in Las Vegas and it was a fantastic opportunity to be able to connect in person with so many different friends that I've made over the past three years remotely from all over the world. So there were folks from India and the Middle East, South America, Europe, Africa, and some of it coincidentally, were people that I didn't know, who knew people I knew. I mean, it was an amazing collection of people within our industry to be able to get together and network and learn so many great sessions presented by leaders from around the world on a variety of topics. So if you didn't miss that, I think there is an opportunity to get a virtual attendance to that and be able to see the replays on some of those as well.
[00:01:46.530] - PMO Joe
Highly recommend next year. I believe they've announced it's going to be October 26 through 28th if my memory serves me. Great. And it'll be in Atlanta, Georgia, so it still be here in the States again next year. And if you weren't able to make this one, certainly recommend you're able to make to the next one. Also, a reminder that these shows are all about 1 hour long and if you're in need of claiming PDUs to get your certifications renewed, great opportunity to go back through the library of shows we've had over time our fifth year. We're up to about show 115, 14, whatever the number is. It's 100 and something. So that's a lot of time that you have available to you to go out and listen, not to me, but to our guests, all the great things that we've heard from so many fantastic guests that we've had on over the years. So highly recommend you go out there and get some good PDUs at this time. In studio, we have one of our guests and we have a second guest who's going to join us midshow. We were just doing a workshop on using a Project Management board game and he was leading that training, so he'll be joining us in a little bit and we'll take him in live as we're doing the show.
[00:02:58.870] - PMO Joe
He'll join us and we'll do that. But first, I want to thank Andrea Clinton for joining us. And Andrea, if you can take a moment just to say hello and let everybody know a little bit about who you are.
[00:03:09.210] - Andrea Clinton
Thanks, Joe. Yeah, hi. My name is Andrea Clinton and I think I can say I'm probably one of the few 100% career project managers. I've been a project manager in some variety for over 25 years, and literally my first job was as a baby project manager. And I've been lucky enough to have some wonderful mentors over the years. I've worked in a variety of industries across multiple different companies, from startups to Fortune Tens. And I think it's just something that I just love doing. And even when I sneak out, maybe into something else, I always come back because it's just such a rewarding career.
[00:03:48.400] - PMO Joe
To have, maybe even Fortune One possible, I think. I don't know. I haven't looked at the Fortune list in a while. But if they're not number one, they're probably pretty close as well.
[00:03:57.180] - Andrea Clinton
That's true.
[00:03:58.030] - PMO Joe
And we'll get into a little bit down the road, but a new venture as well into your own business that you've recently taken on. So some exciting project management transformation, I would imagine we can take those skills into a different industry and help that organization as well.
[00:04:15.110] - Andrea Clinton
Yeah, absolutely. Completely left field for me about Gosh. Almost a year ago, we decided, my husband and I, to open a restaurant, which was something that we had never done before, but I was definitely able to take all of my project management skills both in deciding to open the restaurant, the construction, putting together the processes and procedures and the hiring. Everything was relevant every step of the way. And even today, as we are in operations mode, there's many projects that happen on a daily basis. So project management isn't just sticking to a formal project. You can make a project out of anything.
[00:04:51.180] - PMO Joe
Absolutely. And we'll dig into that a little bit more as well. I mentioned the project management board game we had just played upstairs in a different part of the facilities we're at here. It was interesting, I was observing and kind of training or assisting in the workshop, and at the beginning of the game there was all of these concerned looks on faces and people were anxious about what was about to happen. But after about 45 minutes or so, all the smiles were starting to come out. What's your thoughts on the game? Again, we'll dig in deeper when Daniel gets here. But just your initial thoughts on playing that game and how did that work for you?
[00:05:28.860] - Andrea Clinton
I had a lot of fun, Joe. It reminded me years ago, I was at a training and we were given a book called you Can't Learn to Ride A Bike at a Seminar, and I think the same is true for being a project manager. You can't learn to be a PM unless you have the opportunity to have those hands on skills. And even though it was in a very controlled environment, it provided everyone with the skills that they needed to think through, both tactically and strategically, how to manage a project in a semi real world. So it was great to see folks going from completely nervous, as you said, to feeling successful as they went through it and really starting to embrace some of the terms that maybe they had never heard before.
[00:06:10.940] - PMO Joe
Yeah, it was a lot of fun. We had a prior guest on Roger Haskett several years ago, and Roger is an entertainer as well as a speaker and actor. I mean, he's so well rounded, but he had talked about play, and as adults, we don't play as much as we did when we were children. Yet when we were children, we use play to learn. And it's accepted that's just normally what we do, right, we'll put our children, whether it's at school or at home, into an entertaining and fun environment so that they have an interest in what they're learning about. But as adults, we put ourselves into these boring classrooms of training, and someone lectures to us and they read things to us. So I love this board game in a workshop setting because it brings play back into it, right? We want to do better. We want to enjoy it. We work with our teammates. One of the groups was singing Happy Birthday. Another group was telling jokes. I mean, it was fantastic to have play be as important as learning, so that the two of those pieces together made it be somewhere that you wanted to be, to get trained as opposed to what you might get from a boring classroom setting.
[00:07:26.660] - Andrea Clinton
And I think just building on that, Joe, it also highlighted the human part of it in that we were connecting with each other as people. We may have been individuals running projects on the board game, but we took the time to have those moments of light heartedness in order to get to know each other and really make the process of the project even easier to go through as you got to know the people. And that's so important in projects in real life as well as in the game that we had today.
[00:07:57.530] - PMO Joe
Fantastic. So I know, as you said, you've kind of been this lifelong project manager throughout your career, and you've had an amazing career of different challenges and different opportunities and different roles. You don't have to get into any of the details, of course, on all this, but there's a lot of listeners who are either starting their career or maybe they're thinking about, should I make a change? Because I'm not certain if I like where I'm at. From your experience, what's that journey been like for you? And what sort of guidance would you offer up to folks who are maybe stuck, maybe thinking about something new, maybe starting right? We're all at a different place in that journey.
[00:08:34.530] - Andrea Clinton
I would say that for people that are starting out new, it really does sound daunting to start with. And I would say that learning the terminology and the craft of project management is probably the easiest part. If you really open yourself up to the human side of project management, people are everything on your projects and finding a way to be that project manager that other people want to work with. As you know, you very rarely have any direct authority. If you're constantly building relationships with people, then you can apply the craft of project management to everything that you do, which is, of course, is important, but that doesn't necessarily matter all that much if you haven't developed the people relationships and skills along the way. So focus on that as a starting point.
[00:09:29.460] - PMO Joe
Yeah, we've talked in the past about this, but not everyone is kind of born the same way into project management. The introduction may be different, your skill sets may be different, your background is different. You've been a leader of project managers as well, so you've had teams that work into you. What have you observed of kind of how do people get into this amazing profession differently? Side note, in Vegas, people were telling me that project management is not a profession, and they gave me all the technical answers as to why it doesn't equal what an accountant is as a profession. I don't care about that. I live in the real world, and in the real world, what we do as a profession. Side note back to you, Andrea.
[00:10:12.950] - Andrea Clinton
I mean, I really do think that project managers are born from so many different places. It is a genuine interest in driving something to a successful outcome and having the ability to be organized and bring people together, and you don't have to be of any specific background or any specific skill set. I found that a lot of administrative roles lend themselves very nicely into project management, but sometimes it's surprising. At Apple, we had the opportunity to do a program once a year called Boomerang, where we brought in people that were completely outside of project management. And I had the opportunity to bring in a young gentleman from the tech. He was a technician. He worked as a technician. He'd never worked on a project, didn't even really know what project management was. And watching him just have the desire to learn the humility, to know when he was wrong, we gave him the hard skills that he needed. He brought the soft skills, and he went from thinking that it was something that he could not possibly do, it wasn't in his life, to, oh, my gosh, I'm really good at this, and this could be a path for me if I wanted to.
[00:11:33.460] - Andrea Clinton
So I think that looking everywhere for project management, and you will be surprised at the type of people that are really passionate and able to deliver.
[00:11:47.010] - PMO Joe
Something. I think it was last night. I like to watch short, Instagram stories on Kobe Bryant for inspiration. Here's one of the best to ever played in his profession. And of course, unfortunately, he's passed. But whoever's controlling his social media accounts is allowing him to live on. And there was a comment somebody else had talked about where actually this one was for Gary V, but it was about Kobe Bryant. Gary V had said, Give young people a chance. When Kobe Bryant was 19, he was one of the ten best basketball players in the world. We didn't have to wait till he turned 35 to reward him and let him play and let him be the all star in project management. That really hit home because I never let the young person run the important project. But there's probably Kobe Bryant basketball project managers out there all over the world. They may not have the most experience, but they may have the most skill. They may have the most capability. And if we don't allow folks who have that innateborn skill to be a project delivery person, we may lose them to another profession because somebody else may recognize that and give them the chance.
[00:13:04.010] - PMO Joe
Have you experienced some of these Kobe Bryant like young project managers? Or have you fallen into maybe that trap that I did of you're? Not quite experienced enough, so I'm going to give it to the more senior person. But what's been some of your experience with that?
[00:13:18.190] - Andrea Clinton
I would say, ironically, today, two of the people that had come along with me to the Gamification today, both of them had almost no project management experience. In fact, our restaurant general manager came with me, and she has no project management experience. I knew she had a great personality, and just watching and listening to her embrace the game, even today, I saw that somebody that didn't have a background in it was using all of their skills in drive and connection, picking up the technicalities of it and doing great. So I think just even today, I saw something unexpected and certainly through my career. One of the things that I feel very strongly about is raising up the next generation of project managers and allowing them to be in situations where they can fail in a safe environment. And I think that's so important when a young project manager, for example, gets to present in an executive form for the first time, oftentimes as senior project managers, we want to have that moment of spotlight. We want to have that moment of glory. Allowing our young project managers to do that for the first time earlier in their career, that gives them confidence that they can succeed across different types of stakeholders.
[00:14:44.330] - Andrea Clinton
So I've definitely seen that across my career. And it's something that I try to bring to my everyday life and every project that I come to.
[00:14:52.350] - PMO Joe
And I think where we as an industry maybe have fallen a little bit short, there's some movement, but not enough is we don't teach project management in middle school and high school. Some colleges, very few have it as a degree program. So we're not allowing people to blossom as project managers until they are in their mid 20s, late 30s. Right. Because it doesn't get exposure to them. This is one of the things that also came up at Vegas, is a lot of discussion about education earlier in life. We organize, we plan, we communicate, we achieve. Sounds like everything my 7th grader is doing, but we don't teach them the skills to go do that. Right. I told the story. He recently had to hold a five pound bag of sugar, decorate it like a baby, and for a week he had to be a parent to this bag of sugar. They're trying to teach responsibility and parenting. Man, I wish he was learning about organization and planning and communication instead. Seems a little more real than walking around with a five pound bag of sugar.
[00:15:58.070] - Andrea Clinton
Absolutely. And actually, when my daughter was in high school, I made the effort to go and teach a class of project management to I want to say it was her sophomore high school class and it was something that was brand new to them. But I do remember that they were very excited about the concept. It would be great to go back and see if any of them took the bug forward. But I agree these practical skills and project management is one of those things that no matter where we go as a society, there's always going to need this skill in some way. It's not replaceable very easily through automation or technology.
[00:16:37.790] - PMO Joe
Yeah. I mean, some of the stats out there say we're going to need 25 million more project managers in the next decade. Where are they going to come from? We have to start grooming them. Where you have to start allowing people to grow into this profession. I don't know if there will be enough people to get into it if we start too late.
[00:16:55.080] - Andrea Clinton
I I definitely would agree. I'd love to see more more of the schools have this as some type of an elective class. Definitely be on board to help out there.
[00:17:05.340] - PMO Joe
Yeah. I think just like Bob the Builder, right. When we're teaching our kids here's, a children's book and cartoons and all that stuff about an interest in construction and building, bob the Builder is almost a project manager. I mean, there's some transferable skills there. So I don't know. Maybe we'll be getting PMO. Joe children's books coming out.
[00:17:25.260] - Andrea Clinton
That would be a lot.
[00:17:26.030] - PMO Joe
Soon. Who knows? I have no idea. You had mentioned when you did your introduction about mentoring and I know you had spent some time on the board of directors with VPMMA, of course, close to our heart for mentoring for veterans. What's your interest in mentoring and how has it helped you in your career and giving back as well?
[00:17:47.350] - Andrea Clinton
I think that coaching and mentoring is one of the most important things that I do. I genuinely enjoy working with any project manager that is looking to grow. I get almost as much out of it, I think, as they do, because you're constantly learning how to work alongside different types of project managers, because everybody is different. And as you're working, even with some of the younger generation, they think differently. The way they approach problems is different. And while I may come in with a certain preconception working alongside different thought processes, it's helping me grow as well. So I think that I have actively mentored, gosh, dozens of people over my career, and it's something that I will always make the time to do, and I encourage every project manager to do that. I don't think you're ever not experienced enough to have something to give.
[00:18:47.110] - PMO Joe
Yeah. And I would imagine now as a restaurant tour. I'm guessing you're probably seeking out some mentoring or coaching or guidance from people who are more experienced in that space than you are. Because it's also not just the receiving and giving. It's the shared experience in how to be able to open up a network of people that you may not have had access to before. So I strongly support that as well. I think we, especially in our profession where we just talked about maybe not the experience at a younger age with learning, if we all pick this up a little bit later in our careers, we've all had similar experiences. How can we share that and help the people that are coming along younger, if you can. Just a moment also on veterans, right, and some of your experience with helping veterans from a mentoring perspective and getting into project management. What was that experience like for you?
[00:19:42.560] - Andrea Clinton
Gosh, that was such an exciting experience, Joe, working with veterans as they're coming out of their service career and helping them find the parallels between their military experience and corporate America. And oftentimes it takes a minute to help them understand that a lot of what they're doing is in fact project management under another name and being able to work with some of these veterans and help design education for them so that they are able to seamlessly transition into a project management career through an avenue that they didn't think was possible. There's definitely lots of services available to veterans, but certainly working with VPMA was a great experience because there were so many project managers that were wanting to work with veterans and help them on their journey in some way. And I would say that to any hiring manager out there. If you're ever looking at a resume from a military career person. Look beyond what you might be reading and read between the lines, because the skill set generally is always there.
[00:20:58.130] - PMO Joe
Yeah, there may be some Kobe Bryant's in that mix that unfortunately weren't on the basketball field. Right. They were in the military space and this amazing talent that goes into the military and the training that they receive and the situational awareness that they have I wholeheartedly agree that giving them an opportunity to show that sort of capability in the corporate setting where their resume really isn't ideal for what you would normally hire, I don't think you'll be disappointed. There are so many fantastic people that come out of the military each year. Part of that is aligned to leadership, right? And thinking we as leaders, giving people chances, finding out who can excel and what opportunity through your career, again, starting out as an individual contributor and then working your way up through management and now owning something, right? Has leadership changed in your eyes? Have you kept learning through leadership? What are these different situations provided for you personally?
[00:22:01.050] - Andrea Clinton
Gosh I think leadership is one of those lifelong learning opportunities. You may think you know the answer and then you'll see a new perspective. Something will shift in culture, in pop culture, and you'll realize that you have to tweak your leadership in order to meet the moment, to meet the person. Right now at the restaurant, I work with twelve or 13 teenagers.
[00:22:27.870] - PMO Joe
That's fun.
[00:22:28.640] - Andrea Clinton
That is a whole new experience for me. And again, tweaking my leadership to how they learn and how they want to be led. So I think that I encourage project managers to focus on leadership learning. Read the books, read the articles, find seminars to go to, because you never know when you're going to find that leadership technique that might make the difference in success or failure on a project, because you need that connection with someone.
[00:22:58.680] - PMO Joe
So not trying to put you on the spot on this one, but we're live on the radio. So putting you on the spot. Differences. Leading a team of teens versus a team of corporate professionals at Apple, two very different business settings. How do you play on different skills as a leader to be able to serve each of them the way they need to?
[00:23:24.450] - Andrea Clinton
Gosh? I would say that our teenage crew are very literal in a surprising way. And to give you an example, I might say to someone, hey, could you go do a quick sweep around the restaurant to make sure the tables are clean? And they would go get a broom.
[00:23:44.190] - PMO Joe
Oh boy.
[00:23:45.290] - Andrea Clinton
So just learning that they are very literal in their leadership and they need very specific information and they want to know the why. Why am I doing this? How does it affect me, how does it affect the restaurant? Whereas in a more corporate situation at Apple, for example, they're used to the ambiguity, they're used to having to make decisions without all the information they're used to having to follow direction that they may not completely agree with. And I think that that is truly the difference is between having to explain and be very literal and working with people that can take and work with ambiguity and make the best out of what they have and keep asking the questions until they get to where they need to be.
[00:24:34.550] - PMO Joe
Yeah. This is interesting to hear this perspective because my daughter, who's 1718 in a couple of weeks, she was just recently promoted to manager at not a full service restaurant, but a food service business. My initial thought was, I am so proud of her. It's fantastic. I mean, you're a manager, it's 17 years old. But then I said, what are the owners thinking? How can a 17 year old manage mostly teens at that place? But what you're saying fits into that, right? It's it's the situational awareness that maybe that's exactly the type of manager they need for that sort of setting. Because she probably wouldn't say to them an adult thing like, go sweep around the restaurant. She would literally have to tell them, go look underneath the tables and make sure no guests left anything.
[00:25:25.370] - Andrea Clinton
Exactly.
[00:25:26.490] - PMO Joe
So that's interesting. I learned from her every day, one being a parent to a teenage daughter, but also now as a manager to see the responsibility that she has. And again, this goes back to teaching project management at a young age. She's building schedules. She's understanding when people are out sick, she's understanding they had a free giveaway day. So came home from high school and immediately had to get off to the restaurant to be able to be there for that. And came home and celebrated that our times were faster than last year and we sold more than we did last year. And she's the manager this year, so she's so proud of that. Right.
[00:26:03.880] - Andrea Clinton
That's awesome.
[00:26:04.960] - PMO Joe
So to be able to hear that as a leader into that industry, it's good to be able to hear your perspective on that as well.
[00:26:12.840] - Andrea Clinton
Absolutely.
[00:26:13.910] - PMO Joe
The only thing that we find out as leaders, right, is that we're confronted with situations all the time and we just usually react to what we see on the surface, but oftentimes the surface isn't what really happened. What's your experience, again, as, because project managers deal with this all the time. John didn't do his task well. We react to the task being late, but we don't know what happened. And with team dynamics, it's really important to understand that.
[00:26:41.700] - Andrea Clinton
I think, Joe, that as project managers, what we learn to do is to train ourselves to think about six steps beyond where you are right now and not stop at the easiest answer. And one of the techniques that I've used with teams that I've managed and other folks is the and what technique or the and then technique. And so if you were to ask a question and the answer is pizza. And then what? Well, and then the pizza does this and keep asking the and then what question until you can't possibly answer it anymore. And if you're training your mind to have that critical thinking, I think that is a really hard skill to learn. But once you grasp it, it's something that you never let go of.
[00:27:34.690] - PMO Joe
I like that. I've been in the past, I've used five whys ask the why question five times, but I've never had the and.
[00:27:41.410] - Andrea Clinton
Then it's just a different way of looking at it because especially when you're working with some of the younger folks, it will almost be a half answer, a half question. Is that right? I think this and so if you just keep pushing okay, and then what would happen? And if you did this, then what would happen and what might happen? And just continuing following down that path, I've seen a lot of success with getting much further along that critical thinking path.
[00:28:11.070] - PMO Joe
Again, you just used the context of maybe helping that team get there. But on projects, we often are working with sponsors who may or may not know they're the sponsor because they don't understand our language. So we're calling them a sponsor. They just think that they're responsible for the project. Have you used that with more senior resources as well to be able to manage up and to be able to get senior folks working on the projects as we need them as well?
[00:28:37.290] - Andrea Clinton
Absolutely. You have to do it a lot more subtly, of course, and walk it a lot more subtly. But the same approach does work in that context as well by asking questions to the answer. And if you see an answer or an outcome coming that you know what the outcome is going to be, finding ways to ask the question, well, what if this and when we do this, then this will happen. And asking the questions in a way that they almost arrive with you where you need them to be. The technique is the same no matter what. Obviously the delivery changes depending on your stakeholder.
[00:29:16.300] - PMO Joe
Absolutely. So let's think back to the game today. You know, it's a project management game, but you've never played it, so you don't know what's going to happen during the game. So if we take that and then what mindset into the game, do you think that fits in there? Because again, you're given instructions in the game. I like it. It's a monopoly, right? It's how do you play Monopoly? You put the board in front of you, lay out the cards, lay out the money, move your piece, and then whatever happens, happens. What's your take on the gaming situation that we played through today? And does and then, or why or how does that fit into maybe some of the gameplay as well?
[00:29:54.640] - Andrea Clinton
Oh, I absolutely did that today as we were going. Through the game, thinking through if I make this choice, and then what will be the next thing that happens? And is that the outcome that I'm looking for? And maybe I have to pivot because and then what is potentially a risk that I want to try and avoid and then I'll take a different direction. And then it's almost like being in a maze, making sure that you're following the right path and then backing up if you're not on the right path. So I definitely use that today.
[00:30:29.290] - PMO Joe
And then during the game, right, there was planned task, unplanned task, risks, constraints, milestones, gate reviews, all the things we have in projects and put it into a setting where some of it was planned. It was your planned tasks, but you could land on a space that was unplanned tasks. Did it simulate obviously the project itself wasn't important, it was the steps of it. Did it simulate being in a project?
[00:30:58.850] - Andrea Clinton
Oh gosh, it really did. As we were working through the program, within our gameplay, if you will, you think that you're going to start working on your tasks and you have them all lined up and you're thinking, what could possibly go wrong? I've got this, this is totally easy. And then before you know it, there's a risk thrown up and you have to stop and address that risk or there's a constraint that comes up and then you have to turn around and go backwards or have to try and borrow resources from somewhere else. And in some cases, the actual plan tasks didn't get done hardly at all because there was just constant reaction to the things that were being thrown at you, which is exactly how projects are.
[00:31:42.900] - PMO Joe
Yeah, again, go back to Monopoly, you've got your gameplay and then you take a chance or community chest card and it says advance three spaces or advance to go, or pay $100 for each hotel you have. And all of a sudden you're like, well, I don't have enough money because I just spend it to buy all the hotels. It's the unknown things that make Monopoly be great, frustrating, exciting. This board game, for me, it's not the same as Monopoly because it's specific to project management, but a lot of the concepts are the same. Right? It's putting something in front of you that can be fun, can be challenging, can be unknown, and then seeing how people interact with one another to make the game progress.
[00:32:23.650] - Andrea Clinton
Yes, that was definitely the hands on real life ability to start to develop that critical thinking. Because if you were not thinking in several different directions, then I think that the game would have been very frustrating if you're just focused only on getting to your next task, which is honestly how a lot of new project managers start their careers. I'm just going to go from task to task to task and everything will be great. And then get thrown a curveball in there, not really sure where to go with that. So being able to react to those situations and think through, okay, how do I stop that from happening in the future? I just landed on a space that made me pay this much money. How can I avoid that space in the future? And you don't really know that you're doing it, but you really are having to kind of go from strategy to tactical and kind of flex that muscle in and out throughout the game.
[00:33:20.590] - PMO Joe
Before we play today, last week, you would have to say, joe, I'd love to play this game, but is it okay for maybe people who don't have any or limited project management experience? I said, yeah, of course it is. Now that you played, what do you think? Was I right?
[00:33:36.180] - Andrea Clinton
Oh, absolutely right. I mean, there's definitely some of the terminology that if you're not familiar, you might take a moment.
[00:33:43.080] - PMO Joe
Sure.
[00:33:43.290] - Andrea Clinton
But I personally brought with me today, as I said to people that didn't have any project management experience and they not only enjoyed the game, they thrived through it and haven't had a chance to debrief with them yet, but I think that the outcome is going to be that was awesome. And I would strongly encourage if you're on the fence about playing the game or joining a session, I would wholeheartedly recommend it for any teams.
[00:34:08.360] - PMO Joe
Take the flip side of that. You're super experienced, PMO, director level owner of a business. Now, was it sophisticated enough for you? Did it challenge you? What were your thoughts from a very senior person's perspective as well?
[00:34:23.170] - Andrea Clinton
Yes, absolutely. I was challenged the entire way it takes you back to having to flex the muscles that you sometimes forget when you move into leadership. And it felt good to sharpen those skills. I felt that there were things that I had forgotten or maybe wouldn't have thought about had I not been in that situation today. So I definitely learned a lot about it and it gave me the opportunity to have talking points with other team members that we can take into the future as we even talk about what happened in the game and what was your experience.
[00:34:58.430] - PMO Joe
Yeah. So again, you've been around the block once or twice with all of this stepping away from the game itself and now thinking just about mentoring and coaching and leading younger project managers as we've talked about what's some advice for folks who are either thinking about project management career maybe just at the beginning of their career.
[00:35:22.710] - Andrea Clinton
Stay humble. Honestly, stay humble and be willing to learn. One thing that I often say is be willing to look foolish because you're going to be put in situations where you're working on a project where you don't understand the technology, and you're going to have to try to find a way to ask the questions, which may not be always the right questions to ask. And then remember that in general, people are there to want to see you succeed. And that even though you may be feeling a little unsure in the moment, generally humanity wants to help other people and they're going to want to catch and help you move forward. So don't hold back because you think you don't know it. Embrace it and just jump into it knowing that someone's going to help you move to the next step on the game board.
[00:36:14.490] - PMO Joe
It's interesting because I've worked with a lot of young project managers as well and a lot of them are afraid that they think somebody else is competing with them. Right. It's me. Bob and Susie are all juniors and only one of us is getting promoted. So no one's going to help me. I have to be watching out for my own back. But your counseling is now we're actually trying to help all of you, right?
[00:36:36.510] - Andrea Clinton
Absolutely. There's always the anomalies, but in general, I have always found that people want to help other people. And it may feel like you're in a competition in the moment, but ultimately the team is going to win together and you'll be surprised in what ways you're a willing to help other people and what ways they're willing to help you, even if it's just from observing and learning.
[00:37:02.150] - PMO Joe
Yeah, I agree with that. I believe in cooperation.
[00:37:06.670] - Andrea Clinton
I love that.
[00:37:07.370] - PMO Joe
As opposed to competition. Right. Because ultimately we're all trying to help the company be better. Right. And we all succeed when that happens. So another part of project management that I like to talk about on the show is risk taking. So many people are afraid to make that next leap, afraid to try a different project or a different industry or a different company. You just made a giant leap from corporate world to ownership. How risky was that for you? How comfortable were you? What did you learn from taking a risk that you may have benefited from your prior experiences to help you be able to do that?
[00:37:47.430] - Andrea Clinton
I think I was in a little bit of a different place, Joe, because I've taken great pains to never specialize in any industry throughout my career and I truly believe that the craft of project management can be applied to anything. It's the learning curve. And how quickly can you come up to speed in the next thing, the next technology? So it was definitely terrifying to step away from corporate America in a very stable job that honestly, I thought I was going to retire from. So that part was terrifying. After I had made the decision and started to embrace the process of managing the project that was opening a restaurant, it became very freeing. And honestly, the thing that I have loved the most about it is being able to work alongside the young people and be a place that they're going to learn as a springboard for whatever it is that they do next. And every day there is some element of project management that comes into play.
[00:38:54.090] - PMO Joe
Yeah, I remember one of our VP MMA board meetings, you were actually, I don't know if it was DC or you were somewhere training you're in your kind of restaurant shirt and everything, and you could see all the action going around in I guess, like the training kitchen that it was. And I was thinking to myself, only a project manager could be pulling this off. Right? It was to be able to have all this multitasking going on, to be able to stay on task, to be able to make sure that nothing was falling down, to be contributing to what you were doing, leading over a team. And I was like, yeah, project management, I love it.
[00:39:31.480] - Andrea Clinton
Absolutely. Definitely have to think in a thousand different directions at the same time.
[00:39:36.170] - PMO Joe
Yeah. So from the restaurant versus corporate, a lot of similarities. You've talked about running projects every day, but are the projects different? What about the new experience for you? Are you learning? Because, again, we're lifelong learners, as you mentioned. So what are you learning now? That hopefully everything works out great in your restaurant, but if you choose to get back to the corporate life at some time, what would you be able to bring back to the corporate world that you learned now?
[00:40:07.250] - Andrea Clinton
Gosh, that's a great question, Joe. I think really what I would bring back is the ability to be confident that no matter what's thrown at you, there is an answer. And even when you're feeling at your most uncomfortable, that if you just keep thinking through the problem, that there is a way. Because I think sometimes in the corporate world, it's so easy just to say, well, we didn't meet that milestone, so let's just move back three paces on the board. And realizing that now that I'm running my own business and that I had to be open by a certain date because everything was lined up, we couldn't move back three paces. And there was a way to figure it out that in corporate America there's maybe a little bit more of a cushion, someone to catch you. If that doesn't happen, you're late. Well, we're probably all going to be very disappointed in the project team, but nothing's going to really happen. Whereas in this experience, I knew that there was no one to catch me and I had to be able to keep pushing forward and it was freeing to know that I had the answers inside me all the time.
[00:41:18.760] - PMO Joe
Yeah, that's that's a great analogy. You know, I watched the show The Actors Roundtable, and there was this group of actors being interviewed. And it was Robert De Niro and Adam Sandler and Adam Driver. Tom Hanks. Jamie Fox and Shia LaBeouf. So some really amazing actors all at the same table talking about everything and the facilitator the host had asked everybody what do you wish you knew when you were younger and what you know now?
[00:41:50.550] - Andrea Clinton
I wish that I knew. I do. I mean, I really do. Joe, go back to I wish that I knew that people were there to support me. I think that if I think back to the very beginning of my career, I felt like I was there by myself and that any decision that was incorrect, any move that was wrong, it kept me in a place of fear, and it probably kept me from taking smart risks, from asking questions in a meeting. There was just as an early in my project management career, just being afraid to make mistakes and knowing now, as I embrace as a project manager and a leader, and I see all around me that people really will support you and it's okay to make mistakes. And creating an environment where it's safe.
[00:42:48.800] - PMO Joe
To fail lines up out of that great acting crew. Tom Hanks, his response was, this two shall pass. And it was, when times are great, this two shall pass. When times are bad, this two shall pass. Don't ever get caught up on the peaks and the valleys. Know that it's a journey, and over time, you're going to be able to get to that different destination. So that's kind of where I was at the same thing. I was always afraid to make a mistake because it wouldn't let me continue on the journey. What I've realized now is I'm much greater, is that those mistakes are part of the journey. They actually help you get to the destination.
[00:43:31.950] - Andrea Clinton
Absolutely. And the other piece of that is the ability to move on. I think that sometimes, as project managers, if you do have a misstep, you tend to think about it over and over again, and you carry it with you and you make it part of your story and just driving the ability to move on. I made a mistake. I'm going to learn from it, and I'm going to move on, and I'm not going to carry it with me. I think that is huge.
[00:43:59.370] - PMO Joe
Yeah. And we've been joined by Daniel Zitter. I had mentioned that he was going to be joining us. He's come down after leading the board game workshop. Daniel, if you want to just take him. You've been a guest in the past, but some of our listeners may not have seen that show yet. So if you could just take a moment to introduce yourself and tell everybody a little bit about who you are and what you do.
[00:44:20.630] - Daniel Zitter
Sure. So. My name is Daniel Zitter. I've been a project management consultant for almost 20 years now. I'm an industrial engineer. I started out working out for intel plants around the world. I started in Israel, and then I moved to the States for a couple of years. And in a lot of the organizations, I've been part of setting up PMOs teaching project management actually managed some projects on my own and some programs, and today we do a lot of training, so that's a lot of our focus. And nine years ago, we decided to develop this board game, and that's how we got here today. We played the board game.
[00:45:02.470] - PMO Joe
Yeah. Fantastic. And Andrea was sharing her experience on it. All positive reviews at this point, but I also, earlier in the show mentioned the PMI Global Summit in Vegas. You were there with your partner Hamilton, and you guys had a booth set up at the summit to show the board game.
[00:45:21.350] - Daniel Zitter
Yeah, that was so exciting. I mean, we expected the board game to be somewhere people want to talk about things. We didn't expect that much interest that we got there. So that was really, really exciting. Exciting. We had four people on the booth with us. We had Brandon Thornton, and we had Bruce come over and their partners, and they wanted to come over and be with us there. And there were times that the four of us were talking to different people at the same time. But the novelty of a board game for project managers, I think that's what really made people stop on their steps and say, okay, what is this? So that was a really great experience there.
[00:46:03.010] - PMO Joe
Happy and excited to say the PMO squad is a US partner for you guys. As you mentioned, you're in Israel now. So for organizations that want to have a fun team building workshop that's actually connected to what you do, instead of these, hey, let's build a catapult together, or let's build paper airplanes, those are fun. There's value in that, definitely. But this one, you can have fun and have it be connected to our profession.
[00:46:29.460] - Daniel Zitter
Right.
[00:46:30.030] - PMO Joe
Certainly reach out to the PMO squad, and we'd love to help you with that.
[00:46:33.520] - Daniel Zitter
Yeah. So not only do you get to play the game, you also get to talk about project management, and you get to convey your ideas and things that you want to discuss with your team through the game. So that's really a lot of the fun part.
[00:46:50.130] - PMO Joe
Another part out of Vegas was there was a professor or two professors, one from Israel, one from University of Virginia, who used the game as part of instruction.
[00:47:01.610] - Daniel Zitter
Exactly.
[00:47:02.230] - PMO Joe
And you played the online version of the game during one of the sessions there, and it was fun to see just audience members get randomly volunteered that they were now playing the game. What has been your experience with academia as well as corporate setting for the game?
[00:47:19.450] - Daniel Zitter
So we have a lot of different colleges and universities around the world that play the game. We play it with the University of Edinburgh and the University of Tel Aviv and Darden University and so on. We have a lot of universities, and what they use the game for is so a lot of the professors say, we don't have time to allow people to play the actual board game during the sessions, but we want them to have the experience. So we came together with the online game where the students can play at the beginning of the course, and then they actually get a score from one to 100. They get a score on how well they've done, and they also get a detailed report on what they've done there. So both they and their professors know what maybe they need to focus on when they're learning the course. And then after, towards the end of the course, they play again. And obviously they do much better. Sometimes they don't do as well even at the end of the course. But that doesn't really matter because we want to be able to talk about things. We want to raise the issues, want to make sure that they understood that they learned something even from the second time they played.
[00:48:33.740] - Daniel Zitter
So I don't really care if they only score 60 or 70. That's fine with me as long as they understand why and what they should do in real life on their projects. So again, all we want to promote is learning. It's not all about the game. The game is a means to an end, it's not the end. So we want to be able to use that for learning. So that also works with the online game. And that's great. That's a great opportunity for people that don't have the time to get together and do that.
[00:49:05.440] - PMO Joe
And Christine, who's listening, was talking back about Andrea's comments about people supporting you. If you have your goals and purposes, people will support that. So thank you, Christine, for listening in and commenting on that as well. We're getting close to time here. One other question for Daniel I'd have is every time I play Monopoly with my family, it's a different outcome, right? And I think the intent of the game, to your point, is the game is the means to the end. So do you see different outcomes every time you lead these workshops? And what are some of the key things that are like takeaways for you?
[00:49:39.440] - Daniel Zitter
So I'll just give you some examples. So yesterday we played here at the intel site and we had some really experienced program managers. I'm talking about people that have, I don't know, dozens of years under their belts managing programs. I'm not talking about small projects. And it was amazing to see the way these guys played because from the get go, they got to really advance levels of the game. So, for instance, immediately they understood that they're part of the same program, they started sharing resources among one another. Now, most people that play see the game as a competition, right? So it really depends on who you are, what amount of experience you have, and conveying it on the game and what you do there. So it's really a lot of fun seeing these different types, different levels of experience and how they use the game and play the game. Today we had in the room some people that knew not much about project management. This was like their first or second encounter with the world. And you could see that a lot of what they were asking about were terms in project management. What is a risk, what's a program, what are constraints?
[00:50:57.450] - Daniel Zitter
What does it mean that I have a predecessor of a task? So it's a very basic level, and that's wonderful because you can get that stuff. And then you had some really advanced people, even today in the classroom, who really looked at the next level, and they were collaborating among themselves and they were sharing knowledge. Every time you play, as you said, every time we play, you get different to different points. And that's the fun with it. And the first time you play, you get certain things, but definitely you can play the same game again and again and again with the same team and get more and more results and talk about and emphasize different things.
[00:51:41.060] - PMO Joe
Yeah, the reason why we became partners in the US for the game is because of that. Right. I felt as we went and did 100 different workshops, we'll have 100 different workshops. It won't be the same workshop 100 times.
[00:51:54.600] - Daniel Zitter
Exactly.
[00:51:55.490] - PMO Joe
So for us, that's exciting to be able to go in and as we talked about Andrea earlier, use gamification to help. It be a learning experience for individuals and companies and teams. So here we are. We're at the time of the show where we wrap up and wind things down. Andrew, a great conversation with you on your career and mentoring, risk taking, support and growth as a project manager on this journey we're on. Any last comments of maybe anything we didn't get to COVID or if people would like to continue and connect with you in the future? How can people connect with you?
[00:52:31.630] - Andrea Clinton
I think we've covered a lot of great stuff, Joe. Thank you. It's been my pleasure. And I'd absolutely love to connect with folks. You can find me on LinkedIn, Andrea Clinton. I'd be glad to connect, and however it can help any current or budding project managers, I'd certainly be glad to do so.
[00:52:47.270] - PMO Joe
Fantastic. Thank you for joining us. And Daniela came in late, but again, you've been a guest before, so we're a little familiar with you. How can folks learn more about you or the game? What's the best way to get in touch with you?
[00:52:58.380] - Daniel Zitter
So obviously you can learn more about the game through PMO squad, and that's the one way you could do it. Another way would be to go to our website, which is Pmzone.com, or reach out on LinkedIn. I'm more than happy to link with a lot of people out there and get to talking about the project management game, and project management in general. I just really love talking about it. So feel free to do that.
[00:53:24.040] - PMO Joe
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for making the trip from Israel. It's fantastic to have you over here, for having me, another one of my friends virtually for many years that we finally were able to connect in Vegas and then have you come down here. So super excited to have you here in person. Thank you, of course, to all of our listeners. Without listeners, you don't have a show, right? So people keep tuning in, we keep doing the show. But I will report, I think this is the first time I'm going public with this, that my next show is going to be our last show ever. So we're bringing the live shows to an end. And what we're going to do, we have five shows, 115 episodes or so, is we're going to go back now and revisit those shows, and we're going to pull out pieces from those shows and then repurpose them, not to have more live shows, but to repurpose and share. Because I don't even remember what I talked about five years ago. Right, but it's still valuable and there's a new audience of people who want to listen. So we're out there talking with everybody about what we're going to do with the next iteration.
[00:54:28.110] - PMO Joe
But one more show to go. Later in December, we'll have that guest on Goatsu. Pmosquad. Compodcast. And you can see all of those shows. As I mentioned, great opportunity to be able to collect the PDU and help you with your recertifications. Of course, these shows are live, as we saw Daniel walking in, just as we had planned was live, but we record them and we release them as a podcast. So out on your favorite podcast platform, you can catch all of the different shows. And thank you to our sponsors, the PMO Squad and the PMO Leader. Please be sure to go visit their websites and learn more about what they offer. And of course, in this instance, we'd love to talk to you about the PM board game. It's a great opportunity for you and your team to do something fun, especially now that we're back together again, but keep it within the context of project management. If you're a PMI chapter somewhere in the United States, contact us. We'd love to bring it to your chapter meetings and be part of the offerings that you can provide to your chapter members as well. So that's it for now.
[00:55:32.840] - PMO Joe
Office Hours are closed until next time, which will be the final time. I'm PMO Joe, and you've been listening to Project Management office hours.
[00:55:42.890] - Announcer
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